[hikerobby]

I’m struggling finding a 60% slope that’s an hour long for the Z3 Weighted climbs. After much research I found a 18% trail near Portland OR, I have been doing it most of the 24 week plan for the “STEEP uphill hike” workout, but it is only 1 mile and 850 ft of vert. I can find a 50% slope if I bushwhack up the side of the steepest hill around, but that is only 0.1 miles and 300 feet elevation. Would I do the 50% short slope 10-15 times? Or the 18% one mile repeat 3 times?

If you don’t live at the base of a alpine climb, where are people finding a 60% slope that takes an hour? Even climbing Mt Hood from Timberline Lodge is only 27% the first 3 miles, even steep scrambles only seem to be 40%.

Topic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on January 29, 2021 at 12:36 pm #50066

…or box step-ups.

[LindsayTroy]

LindsayTroy on January 29, 2021 at 12:54 pm #50072

And you’re doing this all in Zone 2? What speed are you going? Could it be that you need to improve your aerobic threshold to make Z2 higher to make this more challenging. What are your HR zones?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on January 30, 2021 at 4:53 pm #50133

Good question, @lindsaytroy.

@hikerobby: The “Z3” in the workout description won’t be shown in heart rate. The extra weight makes the intensity local to the legs while the cardiovascular load will be lower. Heart rate may be in Z2 or even in Z1.

[hikerobby]

hikerobby on February 1, 2021 at 12:11 am #50199

My Aet is 165 and my Ant is 174 (just retested both). Yes that 18% hill I was able to walk up in High Z1/Low Z2, my highest HR was 152 but my average was 142, as expected like both Scotts say. Lindsay my speed was 30min/mile (or an NGP of 20min). I guess that means I need a steeper hill or more weight or I could jog (like I did a bit of but I think that’s not the purpose of this workout)? But I suspect priority would be a steeper hill, or maybe box step-ups which sounds awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on February 1, 2021 at 4:50 am #50211

Another option is the gym-based ME workouts instead of weighted carries. It’s not as specific, but it may be better than low-angle carries.

[hikerobby]

hikerobby on February 1, 2021 at 2:38 pm #50263

I could just switch to the Foote ultra plan early and do start those ME workouts, but I wanted to complete the Mountaineering plan for spring Volcano season.

[LindsayTroy]

LindsayTroy on February 1, 2021 at 3:15 pm #50269

30 min/mile seems like you have plenty of room to speed up without jogging. I think studies have shown that slower than 13 min/mile is more efficient to walk than jog. With poles I bet you could get to 15 min/mile or at least sub 20min while still walking.

Scott (@sws) can jump in here, but my thought would be to drop weight until you can maintain a pace of <=20 min/mile on the hill that you have (18% grade) as (from these posts only) it seems like you are good at carrying weight uphill slowly but maybe less good at being speedy. I too am in this boat, I can carry what feels like an infinite amount of weight slowly but when I drop weight I still move at that slow pace (25-30 min/mile on a 20% grade). So speaking from personal experience, I have been working on improving speed.

[hikerobby]

hikerobby on February 2, 2021 at 10:24 pm #50357

Ok I may be misunderstanding the method here. I thought that since my Aet was within 10% of my Ant that I was banned from doing Z2 work, so I was (attempting) keeping this below 144bpm in Z1. I thought Scott J’s ME video indicated if you can go faster you need to add more weight. I did a couple Z3 jogs on my second lap and averaged 19″/mile throughout. I can certainly go faster if allowed to do Z2 and if I do Z3 intervals I could probably do 15min/mile. So this sounds like a good workaround to not having a 70% hill and not wanting to carry 100lbs!

I know the workout says Z3 Weighted climb so maybe I should have known to just do these faster but Scott J’s video says these will only feel like Z3 to your legs, while your HR likely won’t actually be in Z3. I will do them faster tomorrow and report back!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous on February 3, 2021 at 9:46 am #50375

Whew:

This discussion has gotten way down into the weeds, which is great but I want take back to the fundamentals of what we are trying to accomplish.

The purpose of these ME weighted carries is to simulate (even exaggerate) the demands of climbing a mountain. Mountains are not 18% steep. A very steep trail (think White Mtns in NH) or some VK courses in Europe) will hit 30% but the USFS trail gradient target is 11%.

In normal trails (30% will work for many people) you can not get the ME training effect. Now, this is the heart of the matter and why I stress the steepness. You want the limiter to your uphill speed to be the local fatigue in your legs. Not your HR or breathing. How steep and how much weight is very individual. I’ve had mountains guides with very strong legs who needed to carry 50+% of body weight to achieve the ME training effect. For others 10-15% will do the trick.

If you don’t have access to steep terrain like this; we have spoken about this many times on this forum and if you look over to your right in the forum index you will see 92 threads on ME. Like Scott Semple said: use what you have: Fire stairs in a tall building work great (do laps). A stair machine is a great tool for these workouts and have been used to climb many big mountains by our terrain challenged coached athletes. Stepping up and down on a tall box will also do the trick. If none of these work for you then use the indoor ME progression that is available in PDF form here. I have used this with top alpinists with great success.

Just keep in mind that the goal is to make your legs the limiter and make them tired.

I hope this helps.
Scott

[hikerobby]

hikerobby on February 3, 2021 at 7:32 pm #50417

That was very helpful Scott. We did get lost in the weeds talking about my 18% hill. Part of the issue is gyms are all closed so I don’t have an incline trainer or stair machine. What I have is a long 18% hill or short steep outdoor stairs (no access to tall buildings). But you answered my question that neither more weight nor faster on my 18% hill will give the effect we are going for.

So I will do box step-ups, or a home gym ME workout, or will save ME for weekends when I can get to the mountains. I might just cut off the end of my 24-week Mountaineering program and start the Big Vert program earlier.

[Neil]

Neil on February 4, 2021 at 5:15 pm #50453

We have to work with what we’ve got. I’d do the 50% grade hill over and over again if the footing is relatively stable. Find a weight that prevents you from ascending at greater than 30 fpm. Perhaps slower than that would yield greater benefits.