Skimo muscular endurance- specificty

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #3813
    #skiuphill
    Participant

    Hey!

    First off. Great site you got here, it was truly a need for this kind of high quality, specifc type of database and community. Salut!

    I have been training structured for three years now, and followed the guidelines of TFTNA regarding aerobic trainng. But been slacking a bit on the strength, except core, which ive done a lot. And two short cycles of max strength.

    But i`ve been slacking on the structured water carrying..

    Im climber and wannabe skimo racer, but really use the race weight gear to train for alpine, do long, fun traverses etc. The goals for the season is one race on the 22th of April 1600-2000 pending on conditions. est time 2-2.5 hours and one 10 000meter 120 km ski traverse in one push estimated time 15th of may. The latter one is by far the primary goal.

    What I’m wondering is, when and how to fit in ME workouts and whether to do them on skis or on foot. If skis, is heavier skis good for also training the pull muscles?)

    I`ve been building up to this plan for the last three years. And this is what a base week might look like this:

    Based on an ATP from TrainingPeaks and your structure from TFTNA adding some more intensity work to be faster for racing.

    1. 30-60min continuous zone 3
    2, Hangboard + strength in therapy master in the moring and 3-6hour zone 1 67-73% HRmax
    3, LSD indoors climbing 30-60 min 1-2 hour fasted zone 1
    4. rest, stretch, active recovery (zone 0-1 work, magnesium sulfate bath, foam rolling etc)
    5. 30-60min shorter intervals in zone 3/4
    6, Hangboard in the moring and 3-6hour zone 1 67-73% Herman
    7, LSD indoors climbing 30-60 min 1-2 hour fasted zone 1

    Base2 week

    I have very few responsibilitys and focus most of my energy on being out in the mountains.

    Thanks!

Posted In: Skimo-racing

  • Participant
    Luke Nelson on #3828

    Vegarye,

    From my perspective it looks like are doing several things right. I am not sure that spending focused time in zone 3 is going be helpful as that tends to be not hard enough to be a great training stimulus and too hard to be a recovery workout. I would suggest dropping the intensity there and increasing the intensity on your interval day to get more in the 4-4+ zone.

    As far as the muscular endurance, you should check out the article in training about muscular endurance and see how it makes sense to apply it (http://www.uphillathlete.com/vertical-beast-mode-what-is-muscular-endurance-why-it-is-important-for-any-alpinist-or-mountaineer-and-how-do-you-train-it/) Part of what you are trying to accomplish may be met with training on heavier equipment, but the load is probably not enough to fully reach your potential.

    Good luck in your racing and adventures,
    Luke

    Participant
    #skiuphill on #3829

    Thanks for the response Luke!

    I´ve been debating this my self regarding the zone 3 work, what I’ve come to is that I’m looking at december and January still as base months, where I’m still building aerobic base and dont want to be tripping to hard on the acid. And then I’m starting introducing one zone 4 session a week in february, and then two in march and april still including long days until two weeks before the race before exchanging them for three to five zone 5 workouts the 3 weeks before race/adventure skiing.

    Reason i`m focusing on this now in dec and january, is from a analyze I read of what XC-racers do during summer/fall in Norway. Does it make sense, or do you still think i should do one zone 4+ and one longer continuous zone 3-4 now. Given that my performance month will be 4.5 month into the future?

    Follow up question. Should an ME workout be regarded as a high intensity WO and done in stead of or in addition to the more intense speed workouts? And would probably need to add water jugs on top of heavier equipment? As you point out, its probably not enough on its own..

    Thanks!

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by #skiuphill.
    Participant
    Luke Nelson on #3839

    Vegarye,
    You bring up some good questions here. In regards to balancing the harder workouts I think the bottom line is to make sure that you are focusing each workout on quality. Easy, aerobic volume needs to be easy, below AET and that is what makes it quality. The harder intensity workouts need to be hard, quality here means hitting good solid intervals, or prolonged tempos.

    Specifically about the ME workouts, they should absolutely be regarded as High Intensity. If done correctly they may not stress the cardio system, but will crush your legs. You will need a couple of good recovery workouts after in order to recovery. Always choose quality over quantity, junk miles are exactly that, junk.

    It might be worth considering a phone consult with Scott to further clarify and help create a more specific program for meeting your big goal this spring. I am amazed at how much better my training has gone with his guidance and mentoring.

    Participant
    Thomas.Hiser on #6218

    I had a question about weighted slept pulls. Anyone one have a good training plan using this. Like how much weight, how long a distance to pull it or how long time wise. Any and all help will be much appreciated.

    Keymaster
    Scott Johnston on #6236

    Thomas:

    As with any training prescription there is no single recipe that will fit everyone. I assume you mean “sled” pulls. This would fall into the Muscular Endurance category. The things that will affect the answer to your several questions are (in some order of importance):
    1) You basic aerobic capacity. It is what is going to determine you high intensity work capacity. It is what is going to determine your recovery rate\
    2) Your basic strength. It is what is going to determine your ME work intensity.
    3) Your race goals. Since this is in the Skimo section I assume you want to use this for race training. What length race? The ME will be different for a vertical K race than for a 10 hour event.
    4) Where are you in your over training cycle. Are wanting to use the ME work for basic conditioning or event specific endurance?
    5) Going with #4. What are you trying to achieve?

    ME is a tool and like any tool you can have to understand how and when to use it for its best purpose. No one can make the above assessment for you and blindly following some prescription is like using the wrong tool for any job. Yes, it may work but may not be the best tool for the job at hand.

    Scott

    Keymaster
    Scott Semple on #6629

    #skiuphill: WRT the weight of your equipment, I would use lighter ski gear with the weight on your torso rather than on your legs. An important part of skimo is cadence. The lighter your feet, the higher cadences you can train and race with. Heavier gear in training will require a slower cadence which will then be less familiar when you switch to race mode.

    Participant
    Thomas.Hiser on #7145

    Thank you Scott and Scott.

    To (hopefully) shed a little more light on my previous question. I was wondering how or if I could use weighted sled pulls to replace the uphill water jug carry. Yes this is for SKIMO racing, for a 2-4 hour race, and I would like to use it as event specific endurance.

    Mr. Semple,
    That makes a lot of sense to me and I will definitely be doing that from now on.

    Keymaster
    Scott Semple on #7149

    Hi Thomas,

    As I understand it, the sled pulls that are described in TFtNA are more for developing power than endurance. That power, once developed, would then need to be made more event-specific, whether that’s for a skimo race or something longer.

    The water jug carries on the other hand are a muscular endurance exercise. If skimo is the goal, then I’m not sure how specific long-duration, weighted carries would be. A typical skimo equipment list is going to be very light, and the pace of weighted carries would be relatively slow. It strikes me as the (doubly) opposite stimulus from what you’d want for racing.

    To me, it would make more sense to work on increasing speed within a given duration rather than keeping the pace constant and increasing the work output by adding weight.

    Hopefully that makes sense.

    Scott (S)

    (Scott J: Feel free to correct me if I’m off base.)

    Participant
    Thomas.Hiser on #7312

    Scott S.

    That does make sense. I thought I could use the weighted sled pulls to increase the aerobic capacity of my fast twitch muscles. Which I understood could increase my speed of a longer period of time.

    Really appreciate the time you are taking to help me through this.

    -Tom

    P.S. Also if we are discussing this in the wrong thread we can change to hopefully not cause any confusion.

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